kgallen
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Posts posted by kgallen
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Update: Sept 2014
Looking for some triacs for Betapack, I notice RS don't do BTA25-600B, but they do do BTA40-600B:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/triacs/1270654/ @ £5.86+VAT
Note: Don't be tempted by BTA26-600B as it's the wrong package! [Nearly fell for that one until I checked the datasheet!]
CPC still do the BTA25-600B:
http://cpc.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/bta25-600b/triac-25a-600v-rd-91/dp/SC07588 @£6.23+VAT
Kevin
Whilst I'm here, 100k sync timing resistors for BP1/BP2 must be VR68 rated 1W, e.g:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products/6835297/ @ £0.60+VAT each (min order qty 10)
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Hi Nathan,
As Ian says, what you want to do is perfectly possible.
If you want to store a "static" state of your heads, or are using one of the build-in fixture move effects then you could directly program the submaster.
If you want to do something more complex and use a chase (as opposed to a scene), then you will need to program a memory and then transfer (reference) this from a submaster.
Again as Ian says, decide if you want to store the entire fixture behaviour on the one sub (for a given "dance"), in which case you'll want to tag all attributes before programming the sub, or you might want to split the movement and e.g. colour on a number of subs in which case make sure you only tag the respective attributes before you hit programme for each sub.
We're also assuming you're programming the desk in Partial Mode, and you need to ensure the C/B/P programme options are set to Channel or All depending on how complex you try to get.
I think you'll need to play about a bit to get familiar with how to programme the desk to achieve what you want, as you're using some fairly "advanced" topics, but from what I see in your question, this should be achievable.
I'd also have a good read of the release notes and make sure 10.12 software is on the desk.
Also worth looking at some of the other topics in this forum related to Tagging/Partial/Tracking.
Good luck!
Kevin
ETA Yes there are 48 palettes for each of Colour, Beamshape, Position on the Frog desks. The manual is pretty accurate for palettes although with a recent software release you get 48 for each attribute whereas the manual will say 24 for the Fat Frog.
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Hi,
I had a play with tracking a long fade-down submaster across a running cue stack. This seems to work fine.
Reworking my example above.
SUB1 Ch1=FF 3s/1:30s (all other channels not tagged)
CUE10 Ch1=00 Ch2=00
CUE11 Ch1=TR Ch2=FF 3s/3s
CUE12 Ch1=TR Ch2=00 3s/3s
CUE13 Ch1=FF Ch2=FF 3s/3s
GO on CUE10. Ch1=00, Ch2=00
Push up SUB1.
Ch1 fades up in 3s. Ch2 no change (=00).
Pull down SUB1.
Ch1 starts a slow fade down. This can be seen on the Outputs screen.
GO on CUE11.
Ch2 fades up to FF in 3s. Watching the Outputs screen and the lamp, Ch1 continues slow fade down unaffected.
GO on CUE12.
Ch2 fades down to 00 in 3s. Ch1 continues its slow down fade.
Sometime before Ch1 gets to 00, GO on CUE13.
Ch2 fades up to FF in 3s. Ch1 also joins in (from its current fade down brightness) and fades up to FF in 3s.
Thus CUE13, which has Ch1 tagged (as well as Ch2), takes control of the fade time and brightness of Ch1 from SUB1.
All as expected - a slow fade on Ch1 can track across a running memory stack without its fade time being corrupted by the fade times recorded in the cues running on the memory stack.
So its interesting that such operation could be made to work properly with a submaster overlaying the memory stack, but not with a cue initiated from the memory stack.
I also had a play with editing a few cues after recording. This seemed to work ok and as expected. I added in a couple of LED fixtures to the mix so I could have a play with tracking a colour. First setting a colour change on adjacent cues, then editing to untag the colour change in the second cue and then seeing the colour from the first cue track through when the cue stack was run.
The only "niggle" is that from the Edit channel popup there is no visibility of the Fixture channels. You can see the tag status of the generic channels but not those of the fixtures. So I ended up (hopefully) untagging the colour attributes with WheelGroup+Colour, but then having to press Edit (to exit Edit) and hoping that the dialogue box with Modify? C(Yes) B(No) P(No) would come up (showing that I had actually modified 'something' to do with Colour in that Edit).
Also it would be useful if the magenta colouring that shows a channel is tracking from another memory was used in the Outputs window. It's only used in the Preview window, so whilst you're getting the hang of it you have to keep selecting the Preview window to see the tracking status of a given channel. This is awkward if you want to know the tracking status of the current outputs as the Preview window will usually show the action for the next memory (as you would expect). So to look at the current cue track status you have to go back the Memories window, back step the cursor to the current cue then Preview again.
I'm feeling much more comfortable with Tracking now (cocky?!), I might just give it a go on the next show! I feel more comfortable with it than using non-tracked Partial mode, where I've got in a hellish mess in the past. With non-tracked Partial, when you go back in the stack (usually to do an edit), you just don't get the look on stage you expect, because the non-tagged channels stay wherever they are, rather than being (i.e. tracking!) to what they would have been (will be) when the cue stack is played in sequence.
Hope this is useful to you Fat Frog devotees, and you feel up to giving Partial+Tracking a go!
Regards,
Kevin -
Hi Keith,
I tried several variations and have found that:
- The tracking option ON/OFF has no effect--you must reset to 0 with either one;
- the Tag Replace MUST be set to "Replace" or "Add" otherwise NO re-recording will occur.
I realise this is an old thread but this forum is a useful back-resource...! (And myself I was jsut playing with Tracking so also had some head-scratching to do!)
Always in Partial mode (tracking on or off), it is only tagged fixtures (or generics if Tracking=On and Brightness=Channel) that will get recorded on PROGRAM.
For the ReplayTag setting, it is correct that "Replace" or "Add" is usually used. But you could use "Off", but then you would need to manually go round and tag the fixtures/generics you wish to program. This is noted in the release notes for 10.9:
ReplayTag Off
When a Memory, Submaster or SX is replayed, the tag states on the desk
are not affected. Use this option if you want to look after the tag states
yourself when building up looks for recording.
Further, from your first post, the reason after moving the SUBMASTER the second time you get "Nothing to record" is that after pressing PROGRAM, the tags are cleared. This is described in the Frog Manual p5-3:
6. Press the PROGRAM button to
store the current output levels.
If programming in Partial mode,
the tagged fixtures are
automatically untagged.
(This is also eluded to in the release notes for 9.8, against FR5548: "When the desk clears the tags after a programming operation, ..." which is where I first started my search to confirm this behaviour!)
By lowering and then re-raising the SUBMASTER, you trigger a re-tag of the fixtures/generics used by that SUBMASTER (assuming you have ReplayTag=Replace or Add, and not Off).
Also regarding your comment on "Save All", Keith must just have been having an "off" day! In the 10.0 release notes:
Pressing the Program button while the Wheel Group button is also held, will perform a Save All operation (ie all parameters of all fixtures, plus movement effects will be recorded).
So you weren't going mad!
Hope that helps - since this functionality has evolved over the releases, it can be a little confusing, but the behaviour you report does seem "as intended" if you can piece it together from the manual and overlay the changes in the release notes!
Regards,
Kevin
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P.S. I've known Kevin since I started at CTS and he used to sit outside the shop waiting for me to open up at 7:30 looking for extra bits and pieces.
A wife and kids (oh and moving 100 miles further away) soon put a stop to that. Stage Electrics (Bristol) aren't half as accommodating [didn't mean it Pete, you're 'luverly']!
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Cheers Keith, thanks for confirming. That's a shame, but understandable (it's good that you guys enhanced the software as much as you did, as it's still a great desk).
I might have a play with the submasters to see if I can use those to overlay a long fade over the memory stack... (but still using tracking because I'd need channel-based brightness tagging).
Thanks,
Kevin
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Hi,
I'm using a Fat Frog with 10.12.
I've been having a play with Tracking [Mode=Partial, Tracking=On(--), Brightness=Channel] using two generics for a starter, before I complicate things by adding some fixtures. (I'm hoping to take the plunge and use tracking in our next show).
I have successfully managed to track a chase initiated in an earlier cue, through later cues where the chasing channel is not tagged but other channels are tagged and are moving about. The chase keeps running until a later cue when the channels used by the chase are tagged (as a scene) and revert to a static state. All good.
However I have been unable to track a long (scene) fade on one channel through subsequent (scene) cues that don't have that channel tagged, where I would expect it to track. (In this example, all memories are of type scene).
CUE9 Ch1=FF, Ch2=00, time=3s/3s
CUE10 Ch1=00, Ch2=00, time=3s/30s [initiate long fade down on Ch1.]
CUE11 Ch1=TR, Ch2=FF, time=3s/3s [Ch1 is tracking (not tagged in this memory). I expect Ch1 to continue on 30s down fade and Ch2 to fade up in 3s]
I GO on CUE9 and Ch1 fades up to FF in 3s, Ch2 is 00.
I GO on CUE10 and Ch1 begins its 30s slow down fade. Ch2 stays at 00. All as expected.
Before CUE10 has completed its 30s down fade (say 10s into the fade), I GO on CUE11. Ch2 fades up in 3s as expected. However Ch1 now fades out in the 3s down time of CUE11, even though it is tracking (not tagged) in CUE11. I would have expected Ch1 to continue on its 30s down fade. Ch1 is tracking in CUE11 so I would not expect CUE11's down fade time of 3s to affect Ch1.
In each cue (memory), I can confirm using Preview that Ch1 and Ch2 are either tagged [grey] in that cue or tracking [magenta] as expected, so I'm happy that the tagging is correctly set for each channel in each memory (cue). However I see CUE11 stomp over Ch1's CUE10 fade time for tracked Ch1 as described above.
Am I doing something wrong, or is this not supported or is this a bug?
Thanks,
Kevin
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What is stored in the desk between Full (record everything always) and Partial (tracked or non-tracked modes, user decides what is stored) is likely to be appreciably different, certainly in respect of what "tagged" data needs to be stored. Switching from Partial to Full will almost certainly mean a loss or corruption of the tagging data so you can't then switch from Full back to Partial and expect to be back where you were at the start. Also from a use-case point of view, you decide at the outset how you want to programme the show and exploit the facilities available in that mode - especially if we are talking about using the tracking feature, since that then gives you much more control over what data the desk actually stores and how that data is interpretted into the "look" on stage as each cue is executed.
I'm not one of the software developers for the desk, so I don't actually know how the internal data structures in memory are stored and manipulated, just trying to make some "educated" assumptions how it might operate!
As implied by X-Terminator in an earlier post, a one-way switch from Full to Partial may be possible (because you are elaborating the programming with tagging information), but as that post was from 2004 and the desk software has moved on a heck of a lot since that time - including the addition of Tracking functionality in Partial mode, I think you'd need to do some careful off-line testing of such a switch before relying on it as repeatable functionality.
As Ian says you can always programme a new cue at any point, just by hitting the Program button, but I think your question relates to the Program Mode as set up in Super User.
I don't think Zero88 support the concept of changing Programe Mode mid-program. In fact if you try it, a Warning dialog box comes saying "This may modify show data - continue ?"
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Nick, its possible on the Leapfrog that F2 is labeled 'Name', but certainly on Phantom Frog Leapfrog setting its in the same position on the console as F2 would be on a Fat Frog. i.e 2nd button from the left on the very top row of buttons above the Master A/B faders. Kevin
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Naming retrospectively is the same as if you were doing it as you are programming. Sorry if you already know the following and I missed the point of the question. The following works on the Phantom Frog Leapfrog setting with software 10.12 (latest). I don't think this functionality changed across software versions.
<F2>
Dialog Box=Select type of item to name
<Memories>
Dialog Box=Select Memory Number
<Enter> or type number
Dialog Box=Name Item
<type name using keyboard><Enter>
Job done!
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Thanks guys. That makes sense. Just confused the heck out of me - back and forth to the fixture editor trying to work out what I did wrong!
Kevin
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Hi Keith, thanks for taking the time to look into this.
Cheers, Kevin
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Hi,
I just defined a fixture for an Apollo RightArm (pan, tilt) [plus a brightness channel for the attached lamp]. This was defined from scratch, not by copying another fixture definition.
In the fixture editor, this definition looks fine. However when I load it into my Fat Frog (10.12) and set a fixture (#10) to this profile, I get some other attributes showing on that fixture, that look like attributes from a MAC500 type fixture - Effect, SizeX, SizeY, Rotn etc. I don't have any MACs set as fixtures on the desk, although MAC fixtures do exist in the CFT on the desk.
Ideas? Or how stupid have I been...?
Screenshot of FF and FE, Fixtures file attached.
Thanks,
Kevin
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Hi Paul,
Is it correct that the SMPTE kit can only be fitted to the larger Frog series desks? i.e. it *can't* be fitted to the Frog and Fat Frog?
Thanks,
Kevin
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Hi Jon,
Have you any other suggestions for how we might make a 'setup disk' that contains palettes for a number of (led) fixtures that will be variably assigned to fixtures on the desk? I have several models of LED fixture that don't have identical DMX maps and it would be good to be able to set up and store colour palettes once rather than have to set up each time the desk is reset and the fixtures configured for a particular show.
Thanks,
Kevin
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Peter,
Maybe the following clarifications for your users on your sentence:
The colour palettes on the Fat Frog are *palette* programming time options which means that you must select which fixture types and numbers (1-12) will use a colour palette WHEN the *palettes* are *programmed*.
Kevin
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Hi Peter. Just wanted to say thanks for the comprehensive response! I'll digest that all now! Thanks, Kevin
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Peter, did you get anywhere with this? I also now have a similar requirement to want to save a palette library not knowing now what combinations of fixtures I will map for a given show...
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Hi,
As you found in your para 3 above, the palette is programmed with the data for the fixtures that are selected at palette programming time, so if you ever wanted to apply a palette to fixture 4 then the palette needed to be programmed with fixture 4 selected having dialed up the required "look".
I haven't tried this... but maybe if you have spare palettes (FatFrog has 48 colour palettes if I remember correctly assuming you have recent software **) you could programme a set with the PL1s configured on all 12 fixtures, then redefine the 12 fixtures as your other LED type then reprogramme another set of palettes (again all 12 selected). Then if you have a mixture of fixtures configured you can apply the PL1 palettes to those fixtures (or the subset you wanted) and the other palettes to your other units. Creating the floppy as you suggest is a good idea.
Remember a palette is a specific look of a set of fixtures colour/beamshape/position (as appropriate) and is much more powerful than just storing a setting for "red" which you apply to one or more fixtures. When I first started using the console I thought I stored a palette as e.g. "red" then applied that to one or more selected fixtures at "runtime", but this is not how palettes actually work. Your para 2 reads like you also had the same (incorrect) perception as me at that time.
Hope that helps, or if nothing else something to try (with a couple of simple palettes to start with!)
Kevin
**Edit: FatFrog has 48 of each palette from software 10.8, see release notes:
http://zero88.com/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/GetAttachment/56/554
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Hi Jon,
Seems to work so far on Win8.1...
Risky - yes, I attached a safety bond to my belt before "launching"!
Thanks,
Kevin
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Thanks, Keith.
I'm going to try it on Win8 at home now. Risky?!
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Hi Ian (long time no-see!).
Interesting - I wasn't aware of that feature!
Anyway, it suggested running under XP-SP2 settings. The FE started, Win7 survived, but the FE is completely locked itself now (can't even promote the window to the front!).
Will try and get rid of it and try another setting (although I was forced to save the settings for this program which seems a little premature for maybe intermittant issues...)
Cheers,
Kevin
Hmm, same behaviour with XP-SP3 compatibility.
It seems what happens, is the FE starts, the dialog comes up asking whether you want to open an existing fixture or start a new one, but then closes itself straight away. Then the FE itself is locked.
Just started the FE 5 times from the start menu (as I was before the OP) and no problems (as in Win7 doesn't crash and the FE appears usable). But I'm not sure now if it's running with some compatibility settings Win7 has burried under the hood.
Jon - if you could comment if Win7 is supported then I'll put it down to bad luck, or try and note symptoms if the issue reoccurs.
Thanks,
Kevin
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On 2 out of 3 invokations of the Fixture Editor 2.6.0.0 on my Win7 laptop, the splash graphic appears then the laptop has been completely locked up, requiring a 5-second power button to reset the machine. Is 2.6.0.0. compatible with Win7?
Thanks,
Kevin
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Hi jaylees.
Just to elaborate on what Keith says, you will need to drive the remote input from something like an open-collector transistor, not a push-pull output stage. I don't know what the Pi has for GPIO and whether this can be configured push-pull or open-collector/open-drain. Whatever the stage, it would need to be 12V tolerant and you will end up needing to common the 0V of the Fat Frog with the 0V of the Pi. Given that both pieces of kit are powered from switch mode supplies and their grounds could be floating or at different potentials I'm not sure a direct connection would be the best idea. Maybe better to use an opto isolator like 6N139 to isolate the Fat Frog from the Pi (which is what I did with my wireless remote control, details of which used to be on this forum but have since disappeared over the various migrations...).
Here is some very useful information I got from Paul way back that elaborates on the input stage so you can come up with a reliable interface circuit between the Pi and remote inputs:
"The remote inputs on the Frog series have a 10K pull-up to +12V, then a 10K series resistor and some clamping diodes, before being fed to a 4051 mux and on to a micro A/D pin. The software simply looks for a voltage < 2.5V at the A/D pin to determine a remote switch closure.
A simple open-collector NPN transistor will be fine to trigger a remote input. The maximum collector current will only be 1mA or so, and maximum Vce is 12V, so really any old transistors you have lying around will do. You might want to put a current limiting resistor in your circuit too, to protect your transistors a bit in case someone plugs your remote thing in to a standard analogue control connector which may have a low impedance +10V supply on the pins. 100ohms or so should do, this will limit the maximum collector current through the transistors in case of a fault, and won't affect the voltage read by the Frog significantly in normal use. "Hope that helps.
Kevin
LEDJ Intense 9P10 Fixture
in General Discussion
Posted
Hi Jon/all,
Here is a fixture definition for the LEDJ Intense 9P10. It doesn't seem to be in the Rev28 fixture library.
Home is White@Full
Full parameter detail (colour lookup) is given for the Presets on Ch8 and the Programme for Ch7 for those of you with fancy desks.
Attached IFT file for the 9 channel mode of this fixture.
PDF manual is (just) too large to upload, but can be found here: https://prolight.co.uk/PRO/item.php?id=509865/
Regards,
Kevin
LEDJ_Intense_9P10.ift