Red, Green, Blue, White, Amber, Ultra Violet fixtures

[keredyelesob]

so, the inner workings of Zero88 a side, are you saying that a working colour picker is a new feature or a bug fix?

Before answering consider it is in a current release and not working as described. additionally the colour picker 'keep parameters separate' also has a bug due to the former.

[Davidmk]

42 minutes ago, keredyelesob said:

All in all it would be easier to right off the auto colours as a lost course as its not fit for purpose. I will create my own at the start of a tour.

Actually that isn't a bad plan - I do that but for reasons other than the ones bothering you. The auto generated pallettes have to be generalised so don't give the same shade of a colour across the four different types of LED in our rig so I always use my own pallettes.

Creating your own pallettes and always using them in your programming you can adapt the colours used in your show quickly and easily. Here I am thinking of when you need to replace fixtures with different types when you use a venue's own fixtures or you can't use the ones you originally programmed for but it also makes life easier when you decide that the shade of orange you chose really doesn't go as well with the the set as you originally thought.

The auto pallettes and the colour picker, IMHO, are no more than a quick and dirty way to do things. Great for when you don't have time for subtleties or for beginners but if you have time making your own always wins.

 

[Davidmk]

4 minutes ago, keredyelesob said:

so, the inner workings of Zero88 a side, are you saying that a working colour picker is a new feature or a bug fix

Oh. Tricky. It depends on what was specified. Not being a zero 88 employee I'm not privy to that however it does appear to be designed to mix RGB only and my feeling is that doing more than that is a minefield. You see the trouble is you have RGBWAU fixtures but there are so many other variations. Even when it's just RGB you get different shades of colour on different fixtures for the same DMX values (hence me saying it is a quick & dirty solution).  So, it is only a bug if it doesn't do what it says on the tin but within the limitations of the spec.

As to what is being tagged/recorded then yes, it may be a bug, but that may be with the fixture definition or with the desk software.

[keredyelesob]

47 minutes ago, Davidmk said:

Actually that isn't a bad plan - I do that but for reasons other than the ones bothering you. The auto generated pallettes have to be generalised so don't give the same shade of a colour across the four different types of LED in our rig so I always use my own pallettes.

in essence I would agree with you but, as you also point out, when you do not have the luxury of time it is a different matter.

This whole problem came about because of a tour that visited last week, they arrived at 13:00 and needed to setup lights, scenery, projection, sound (including a grand piano on stage), this all needed to be in place for 16:00 for the cast to go through their blocking, all of this needed completing before VIPs had a Backstage tour at 18:15 and for doors to open at 19:00. Some where in between we fitted in a quick que to que expectation for the lighting. so yes we where busking the show. As the show progressed the colours became more and more obscure as previous cues and custom pallets had  made use of the additional unsupported colours. This did not look good for all involved, not to mention the bad PR with the public shaming of the lighting desk and operator. Yes I know my fault for expecting red to be red and green to be green but we learn from our mistakes, and this lesson is do not use a Zero88 lighting desk with fixtures that support more colours than RGBW. that is unless you have the time to overwrite all of the auto generated pallets.

35 minutes ago, Davidmk said:

Oh. Tricky. It depends on what was specified. Not being a zero 88 employee I'm not privy to that however it does appear to be designed to mix RGB only and my feeling is that doing more than that is a minefield. You see the trouble is you have RGBWAU fixtures but there are so many other variations. Even when it's just RGB you get different shades of colour on different fixtures for the same DMX values (hence me saying it is a quick & dirty solution).  So, it is only a bug if it doesn't do what it says on the tin but within the limitations of the spec.

As to what is being tagged/recorded then yes, it may be a bug, but that may be with the fixture definition or with the desk software.

LOL, Love the diplomatic answer. As an end user I expect red to represent red. Like you say it is quick and dirty anyway so why not eliminate one problem of unsupported colours infecting an already flaky colour picker.

By just setting all other unsupported colours to 0, the existing colour picker in its current state will still work as intended, all parameters will still get tagged and remain together (if selected in setup). 2 birds one simple fix. Users are still free to record their own pallets with their own parameters, should that include Amber and lime, that's up to them. Its just a shame the suggestion will be completely overlooked by zero88 as they do not acknowledge the problem. In the Past Jon whole would give suggestions consideration and a Zeros number, alas.

[Davidmk]

So you are operating in a world not unlike my own but you imply you have cue stacks rather than single cue playbacks. I do use a bit of a mixture like that myself even though we have RGB, RGBW, RGBAW & RGBAWU fixtures. What I don't do is use the programmer to busk. Never had the issue you describe though.

[keredyelesob]

15 hours ago, Davidmk said:

So you are operating in a world not unlike my own but you imply you have cue stacks rather than single cue playbacks. I do use a bit of a mixture like that myself even though we have RGB, RGBW, RGBAW & RGBAWU fixtures. What I don't do is use the programmer to busk. Never had the issue you describe though.

To be honest it depends on the situation. I would say 50% of my work is in Cue stacks the rest is generally on the fly. If I have the time and/or a show is in for more than 1 performance I will generally  use a que stack. If a show it just in for 1 performance we generally do not have the time to record much as getting the show in is the number one priority so in this case it will be on the fly. That Said last week was a mix of small Que stacks for specific sciences, than a lot was added on the fly to fill out the small amount we had set. this was when we got the colour mixing issues. FLX is currently not fit for purpose in this situation.

[Davidmk]

54 minutes ago, keredyelesob said:

not fit for purpose

Strong statement, you are clearly annoyed by this issue.

So, are you using the programmer to add these bits on the fly?

As I said, I avoid that. It's easy to override or add to existing live cues this way but hard to then get rid of that override - not least because clearing the programmer doesn't have a fade time. If you don't clear the programmer then stuff just builds up in it. I'm aware that there might be ways to remove things but TBH I try to avoid being in that situation in the first place. You could research this or perhaps Edward could advise us both.

[Davidmk]

There are two things I do though. One is using blind mode to create a new cue before I need it, another is to use the programmer to make a new cue live, record it and make it live then clear the programmer. I can then fade out the new cue which I can then delete or keep and re-use.

[Edward Z88]

Hi @Davidmk

3 minutes ago, Davidmk said:

not least because clearing the programmer doesn't have a fade time.

Upon double tapping CLEAR, if you would like your fixtures to fade to their defaults or cue values, you can enable Programmer Time. Programmer Time can be accessed from the fourth encoder wheel in the Z window, or from a fader. For more information, please see the link below...

https://zero88.com/manuals/zeros/z-key/z-encoders#programmertime

5 minutes ago, Davidmk said:

I'm aware that there might be ways to remove things but TBH I try to avoid being in that situation in the first place.

To remove certain fixtures from the programmer, you can use a "Clear Fixture" UDK on FLX. For more information see the link below...

https://zero88.com/manuals/zeros/user-definable-keys/advanced-udks

You may find this session below has some other handy pointers...

 

Hope this helps,

Edward

[Davidmk]

4 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

Upon double tapping CLEAR, if you would like your fixtures to fade to their defaults or cue values, you can enable Programmer Time

There's my first lesson. I was under the impression that programmer time only applied to fade in but not to clear. Definitely going to give that a try. The video I'll have to review later, I've got a dog reminding me that it's walkies time.

Thanks for the input though, prompt and helpful as always.

[keredyelesob]

52 minutes ago, Davidmk said:

Strong statement, you are clearly annoyed by this issue.

I wasn't to annoyed until I was told it was not a bug and my fault for not tagging and changing the additional colours, I am sorry but an auto generated Red pallet should output red or close to red (hence automatically removing the unsupported colours when using auto colours would achieve this). When you have a venue filled with just over 400 people and the act on stage rips into you for a fault with the lighting desk then yes it is upsetting not to mention damaging to my reputation.

52 minutes ago, Davidmk said:

There are two things I do though. One is using blind mode to create a new cue before I need it, another is to use the programmer to make a new cue live, record it and make it live then clear the programmer. I can then fade out the new cue which I can then delete or keep and re-use.

In essence this would be great but given the desk outputs erroneous colours then this is not so good. Live mode at least i can rectify quite quickly as you see the combined effect. blind mode I would need to check all of the parameters for my lights in the rig first. not so easy when you are getting cues shouted in quick succession.

53 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

Hi @Davidmk

Upon double tapping CLEAR, if you would like your fixtures to fade to their defaults or cue values, you can enable Programmer Time. Programmer Time can be accessed from the fourth encoder wheel in the Z window, or from a fader. For more information, please see the link below...

https://zero88.com/manuals/zeros/z-key/z-encoders#programmertime

To remove certain fixtures from the programmer, you can use a "Clear Fixture" UDK on FLX. For more information see the link below...

https://zero88.com/manuals/zeros/user-definable-keys/advanced-udks

You may find this session below has some other handy pointers...

 

Hope this helps,

Edward

 This is exactly how i use the desk for 'on the fly' and it works great until you use the auto generated colours then it is no good.

[Сarlin_Garfield96]

Thanks for writing the solution.

[van den abbeele Eric]

Hello,

 

About problems with RGBW+Amber+UV, did you find solution ?

 

Because now we find more & more RGBWAUV projectors... 

 

For me, my solution is to use in color palette, Amber with wheels at Zero, and the same for UV color,  for be sure that OK. 

So when you have many Fixture with RGBWAUV color, and you want to have a color variety, it' taking time to change parameter... 

I wish that in future, Amber and UV can be incorporated automatically. And to have Umber which can be use in picker...

 

Bye

[Edward Z88]

Hi Eric,

Thank you for replying to this thread. This thread started over 5 months ago, when ZerOS only dealt with Red, Green, Blue and White emitters. All other emitters were not used by the colour mixing, and could simply be adjusted manually using the encoder wheels.

5 minutes ago, van den abbeele Eric said:

About problems with RGBW+Amber+UV, did you find solution ?

Because now we find more & more RGBWAUV projectors... 

ZerOS 7.11 introduces colour mixing support for Amber and UV parameters too. In fact, ZerOS 7.11 allows over 20 additive colour emitters to be applied to the ZerOS Colour Mixing. These parameters will then be used by the Automatic Colour Palettes, Colour Picker, Images Picker, Colour Faders and Colour Filters.

Please see the link below for more information...

https://zero88.com/manuals/zeros/controlling-fixtures/colour

If your fixture has UV, you will be able to decide whether UV is included in the ZerOS Colour Mixing. Please see the link below for more information...

https://zero88.com/manuals/zeros/patching/fixture-schedule/fixture-settings#uv

I hope this helps. If you have any questions, please let us know.

Edward

[van den abbeele Eric]

Hello Edward,

 

It's  great to hear this. 

So, one more good reason for going to 7.11. 

 

thank Edward

[Transversales]

In 7.11 it's said :

Quote

Supported parameters include Deep Red, Red, Red Orange, Orange, Amber, Yellow, Light Green, Lime, Green, Mint Green, Green Cyan, Cyan, Royal Blue, Blue, Indigo, Deep Blue, Congo Blue, Purple, Magenta, Violet, UV and Pink.

Most of the keyword defined in the "Fixture Type Editor" was taken in consideration, except the longuest ones, since we can only enter 7 characters in the color name (it's the case for : Deep Red, Red Orange, Light Green, Mint Green, Green Cyan, Royal Blue, Deep Blue, Congo Blue)

Is there some keyword to replace them, that make them recognized ?

[Jon Hole]

30 minutes ago, Transversales said:

Most of the keyword defined in the "Fixture Type Editor" was taken in consideration, except the longuest ones, since we can only enter 7 characters in the color name (it's the case for : Deep Red, Red Orange, Light Green, Mint Green, Green Cyan, Royal Blue, Deep Blue, Congo Blue)

Is there some keyword to replace them, that make them recognized ?

Deep Red = "Deep Re"

Red Orange = "Red Orn"

Light Green = "LightGr"

Mint Green = "Mint Gr"

Green Cyan = "Grn Cya"

Royal Blue = "RoyalBl"

Deep Blue = "DeepBlu"

Congo Blue = "CongoBl"

Edited May 24, 2022 by Jon Hole
Fixed typo for "Red Orn"