Red, Green, Blue, White, Amber, Ultra Violet fixtures

[keredyelesob]

Hi, We have replaced most of our RGBW fixtures with RGBWA,UV but now I get a really frustrating issue when using 'Automatically create colour pallets' 

the problem is that the Amber and UV parameters do not get tagged as part of the colour pallet. so if I set amber and/or UV to any value, then select the Auto generated red parameter the amber and UV reman the same so I do not get red, I get red plus a bit of amber/uv. I am not bothered that the colour pallets do not use the Amber and UV channels I will record my own for this, but I am bothered it ignores them when setting the colours. (if I record my own Red to tag the additional parameters and another user selects Auto Generate then it over writes with the default)

The solution - When selecting an auto generated colour pallet can all 'other' colours be set to 0%, (same as you did with white some years ago)

If a user has recorded the colour pallet then no change to how Zeros works now.

Thanks

Derek

[kgallen]

Hi Derek.

Worth noting what ZerOS version, and thus whether original or new library format.

I wonder if this is a fixture definition issue - maybe Amber and UV aren’t declared as ‘Colour Other’. Is the fixture definition one you’ve written yourself or one from the released library? If released, worth capturing the fixture model used here so Edward could take a look.

I realise you’re experienced on here so these may be questions you’ve already considered!

Kevin

[Edward Z88]

Hi Derek,

ZerOS currently supports fixtures with RGB, RGBW, or CMY colour mixing. LED emitters outside of these, will not be included in the ZerOS Colour Tools. The ZerOS Colour Tools include Auto Colour Palettes, Colour/Image Picker, Filters, Faders and Colour Effects.

Therefore, when using any of these colour tools, ZerOS will make no changes to other emitters. Other LED emitters will default to 0, however if they have manually been added, ZerOS won't automatically remove them when using the colour tools.

Your easiest option, is to therefore create a colour palette which takes Amber and UV to 0. That way, you can tap this palette prior to using the colour tools such as automatic colour palettes. Alternatively, you can manually update the automatic colour palettes, to include your desired levels of Amber and UV.

If you have any questions, please let us know.

Edward

[keredyelesob]

17 hours ago, kgallen said:

Hi Derek.

Worth noting what ZerOS version, and thus whether original or new library format.

I wonder if this is a fixture definition issue - maybe Amber and UV aren’t declared as ‘Colour Other’.

Fixture profile was my first thought, so I loaded a fancy Zero88 generated one, had the same result.

I hadn't appreciated listing versions so for completeness, this was tested on Zeros 7.9.9 with the default fixture library (and my custom fixtures) and on the latest Beta Release Zeros 7.9.9.40 with the default fixture library (also tested with my custom fixtures). All variants had the same bug. including the new shinny, slightly floored fixture format.

17 hours ago, Edward Z88 said:

Your easiest option, is to therefore create a colour palette which takes Amber and UV to 0. That way, you can tap this palette prior to using the colour tools such as automatic colour palettes. Alternatively, you can manually update the automatic colour palettes, to include your desired levels of Amber and UV.

while I appreciate your feedback I can help but feel fobbed off again. What happened to Zero88 customer focus and that can do attitude we all loved. over the fast few years Zero88 have given several 'Not our problem' responses to multiple threads on this forum, in honesty that is why I had not bothered with the forum for years. recently I came back in the hope the attitude may have changed but unfortunately not.

Ultimately what you are telling me is, if I use the other colours available on my fixtures (that are not Red, Green, Blue, or White) then select the auto generated 'RED' pallet I will NOT get red, but that is my fault for choosing to use the other colours available on the fixture, not the fact that red should only uses the red parameter and no other colour. this is a BUG.

Your solution above may work for busking but how does this work when tracking a cue stack. I must always remember to tag these additional colours for every fixture that has them because the desk has a bug in the software that is being ignored.

Given how many fixtures now support multiple colours I expect it wont be long until you are getting multiple threads with the same issue, similar to when you ignored the white parameter years ago. 

If I post it as a problem with the FLX S range would I get a better response like maybe, and this is clutching at straws. "yes we do see this as a bug with our software and we will will add to our list for future consideration".

feeling let down again. sad times.

[Edward Z88]

Hi Derek,

41 minutes ago, keredyelesob said:

slightly floored fixture format.

Apologies - I think I am misunderstanding your view point. What specifically are you finding is a floor with the ZerOS Library fixture format?

35 minutes ago, keredyelesob said:

Ultimately what you are telling me is, if I use the other colours available on my fixtures (that are not Red, Green, Blue, or White) then select the auto generated 'RED' pallet I will NOT get red, but that is my fault for choosing to use the other colours available on the fixture, not the fact that red should only uses the red parameter and no other colour. this is a BUG.

This issue here, is that ZerOS is not applying Amber, or any other emitters on top of RGBW, to the colour tools. This is something that we will be implementing, and have regular meetings discussing the subject. Simply telling ZerOS to take any other emitters to 0 when using the colour tools is definitely not the solution - especially for Auto Colour Palettes such as Orange, which definitely should use Amber.

38 minutes ago, keredyelesob said:

Your solution above may work for busking but how does this work when tracking a cue stack. I must always remember to tag these additional colours for every fixture that has them because the desk has a bug in the software that is being ignored.

Whenever you manually adjust a colour parameter, all other colour parameters will be tagged. They will therefore be stored in their current values when you record a cue. This therefore shouldn't cause you an issue whilst programming cue stacks, especially if SmartTag is enabled.

Edward

[kgallen]

5 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

Apologies - I think I am misunderstanding your view point. What specifically are you finding is a floor with the ZerOS Library fixture format?

I suspect Derek meant "flawed".

[keredyelesob]

5 minutes ago, kgallen said:

I suspect Derek meant "flawed".

thanks for clarifying Keven. being dyslexic has often caused confusion with my posts, good to see that some people could pick up what I intended to write.

[keredyelesob]

  

42 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

Apologies - I think I am misunderstanding your view point. What specifically are you finding is a floor with the ZerOS Library fixture format?

sorry as keven has pointed out i meant flawed. when i say this i mean:

• Users are unable to write or modify profiles to suite their own unique needs. 
• Not all colours are tagged when using the auto generated palets.
• When asking for new profiles they MUST go through zero88 and MUST have a english manual. (no good for custom fixtures or props)
• Looking at recent posts requested fixtures are not implemented.
• Profiles do not always match Fixtures (hence the need to be able to customise them)

42 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

This issue here, is that ZerOS is not applying Amber, or any other emitters on top of RGBW, to the colour tools. This is something that we will be implementing, and have regular meetings discussing the subject. Simply telling ZerOS to take any other emitters to 0 when using the colour tools is definitely not the solution - especially for Auto Colour Palettes such as Orange, which definitely should use Amber.

When i say simply setting additional colours to 0%. I am saying it as a very quick and dirty fix to allow your R&D team time to look into a more advanced solution. at least then selecting Red you get Red, selecting orange you get a close match using RGB, if the user then wants to use true amber then they can make a new pallet until a more advanced option comes along. To completely ignore the additional chips when then they are tracked through the stack unless they are tagged gives very odd colours. but to say an auto red pallet is red only if you have not used the other colours is utter rubbish. I would rather see a partial effort than nothing. at least then we see i hope that something is being done.

42 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

Whenever you manually adjust a colour parameter, all other colour parameters will be tagged. They will therefore be stored in their current values when you record a cue. This therefore shouldn't cause you an issue whilst programming cue stacks, especially if SmartTag is enabled.

What when you insert a que using an auto colour pallet. at the point of doing this my stage is Red but when ran through the stack it is odd colours due to Amber and UV being tracked.

 

When i talk about auto colours i mean just the main pallet screen, not the colour picker, and mood bourds. i can see this will be a problem

[kgallen]

6 minutes ago, keredyelesob said:

thanks for clarifying Keven. being dyslexic has often caused confusion with my posts, good to see that some people could pick up what I intended to write.

You're one up on me, without looking it up, I wouldn't be able to spell "dyslexic". Even typing it is "fun"! 🤣

[Edward Z88]

13 minutes ago, keredyelesob said:

Users are unable to write or modify profiles to suite their own unique needs. 

As discussed in a previous thread, the Fixture Editor can still be used, to create and edit fixtures in the .ift format. It cannot be used to create fixtures in the ZerOS Library format, or edit ZerOS Library fixtures.

Edward

[keredyelesob]

  

14 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

Apologies - I think I am misunderstanding your view point. What specifically are you finding is a floor with the ZerOS Library fixture format?

sorry as keven has pointed out i meant flawed. when i say this i mean:

• Users are unable to write or modify profiles to suite their own unique needs. 
• Not all colours are tagged when using the auto generated palets.
• When asking for new profiles they MUST go through zero88 and MUST have a english manual. (no good for custom fixtures or props)
• Looking at recent posts requested fixtures are not implemented.
• Profiles do not always match Fixtures (hence the need to be able to customise them)

19 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

This issue here, is that ZerOS is not applying Amber, or any other emitters on top of RGBW, to the colour tools. This is something that we will be implementing, and have regular meetings discussing the subject. Simply telling ZerOS to take any other emitters to 0 when using the colour tools is definitely not the solution - especially for Auto Colour Palettes such as Orange, which definitely should use Amber.

When i say simply setting additional colours to 0%. I am saying it as a very quick and dirty fix to allow your R&D team time to look into a more advanced solution. at least then selecting Red you get Red, selecting orange you get a close match using RGB, if the user then wants to use true amber then they can make a new pallet until a more advanced option comes along. To completely ignore the additional chips when then they are tracked through the stack unless they are tagged gives very odd colours. but to say an auto red pallet is red only if you have not used the other colours is utter rubbish. I would rather see a partial effort than nothing. at least then we see i hope that something is being done.

28 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

Whenever you manually adjust a colour parameter, all other colour parameters will be tagged. They will therefore be stored in their current values when you record a cue. This therefore shouldn't cause you an issue whilst programming cue stacks, especially if SmartTag is enabled.

What when you insert a que using an auto colour pallet. at the point of doing this my stage is Red but when ran through the stack it is odd colours due to Amber and UV being tracked.

 

When i talk about auto colours i mean just the main pallet screen, not the colour picker, and mood bourds. i can see this will be a problem

[keredyelesob]

13 minutes ago, kgallen said:

You're one up on me, without looking it up, I wouldn't be able to spell "dyslexic". Even typing it is "fun"! 🤣

Living with it, it is the one word you lean quickly. 🤣

[keredyelesob]

 

7 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

As discussed in a previous thread, the Fixture Editor can still be used, to create and edit fixtures in the .ift format. It cannot be used to create fixtures in the ZerOS Library format, or edit ZerOS Library fixtures.

Edward

In that thread you never said how we make a multi cell fixture??

[Edward Z88]

 Hi Derek,

2 minutes ago, keredyelesob said:

• Users are unable to write or modify profiles to suite their own unique needs. 
• Not all colours are tagged when using the auto generated palets.
• When asking for new profiles they MUST go through zero88 and MUST have a english manual. (no good for custom fixtures or props)
• Looking at recent posts requested fixtures are not implemented.
• Profiles do not always match Fixtures (hence the need to be able to customise them)

To clarify for others reading this thread, and to avoid any confusion:

• Users CAN write or modify profiles to suit their own unique needs in the .ift format. Fixtures can be downloaded in the .ift format, to allow them to be edited, from the link below...

https://zero88.com/fixtures/legacy-library/Legacy library (gft41.0)/

• When requesting fixture files from Zero 88, an official English operating manual is required. If you do not have this information, you can create the fixture file yourself.

7 minutes ago, keredyelesob said:

When i say simply setting additional colours to 0%. I am saying it as a very quick and dirty fix to allow your R&D team time to look into a more advanced solution. at least then selecting Red you get Red, selecting orange you get a close match using RGB, if the user then wants to use true amber then they can make a new pallet until a more advanced option comes along.

We'd rather get this implemented correctly, rather than doing an interim "bodge".

8 minutes ago, keredyelesob said:

What when you insert a que using an auto colour pallet. at the point of doing this my stage is Red but when ran through the stack it is odd colours due to Amber and UV being tracked.

From your description it sounds like SmartTag is disabled. If SmartTag is enabled, ZerOS will ensure that required parameters are at the levels you had them in at the point of recording, without the need to worry about tagging.

8 minutes ago, keredyelesob said:

In that thread you never said how we make a multi cell fixture??

The Fixture Editor can continue to be used to create any fixtures in the same format as previously.

Edward

[keredyelesob]

18 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

• When requesting fixture files from Zero 88, an official English operating manual is required. If you do not have this information, you can create the fixture file yourself.

How do we create a fixture that uses new functionality such as multicell control? To clarify for others, new functionality is NOT supported by the fixture tools. (how long until it is obsolete)

18 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

We'd rather get this implemented correctly, rather than doing an interim "bodge".

OK, do you have a time line, as this is the first time you have mentioned the support for colours outside of RGBW? is it the same time line as all of your other features ~3-4 years. come on, you are so far behind with this its embarrassing.

18 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

The Fixture Editor can continue to be used to create any fixtures in the same format as previously.

How do we implement new functionality into these profiles?

 

As a freelance tech I have always been a big supporter of Zero88 when on tours or contracted to venues but you don't make it easy, are we seeing the end of Zero88?

[Jon Hole]

Hi Derek,

27 minutes ago, keredyelesob said:

How do we create a fixture that uses new functionality such as multicell control? To clarify for others, new functionality is NOT supported by the fixture tools.

Please remember you're talking about unfinished, unreleased beta software in our public forums. More than happy to continue this conversation in the beta forums, but not publicly.

27 minutes ago, keredyelesob said:

OK, do you have a time line, as this is the first time you have mentioned the support for colours outside of RGBW

As you're fully aware, we currently take the position of not talking about our product roadmap. We've done this precisely because of not wanting to let users down - and have been very open and honest about how that has happened in the past . A few weeks ago, in response to another thread which you were part of, I asked "I'd be interested to be pointed towards other industry players who are willing to publish roadmaps with dates, as I'm unaware of them" - I haven't yet received any replies to that request, and I'd still be very interested to know of them.

[kgallen]

19 minutes ago, Jon Hole said:

 A few weeks ago, in response to another thread which you were part of, I asked "I'd be interested to be pointed towards other industry players who are willing to publish roadmaps with dates, as I'm unaware of them" - I haven't yet received any replies to that request, and I'd still be very interested to know of them.

Yea, I think we're over-working this a bit Jon. The essence of our point is "having the vaguest idea of", viz "functionality x is planned for ZerOS 9.4 which is expected in Q3-2022" rather than "31st October 2021" or "We don't have a Scooby-Doo[TM] when we we'll do it and we have no (internal) project plans or milestones in place which deliver on this".

I (We) realise and appreciate you can't nail down features to the minute and that there will be issues that come up and take precedence, and sometimes a feature may well slip a release. It's the yardstick that we're missing.

I'm not sure you should measure yourself against what say ETC do. You need to deliver for your customer base (stating the obvious there of course).

(Mods move to a thread in Beta if required)

[keredyelesob]

  

39 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

From your description it sounds like SmartTag is disabled. If SmartTag is enabled, ZerOS will ensure that required parameters are at the levels you had them in at the point of recording, without the need to worry about tagging.

Clearly you are still adamant it is 'not our problem', this is where my main concern is with the depreciating standards of Zero88. 

Attached is a show file from Zeros 7.9.9.39 (Phantom) it has one RGBWAuV fixture. the main Que stack has 4 Ques, 

1. White
2. Amber
3. Trigger Stack 1 (Colour chase using colour pallets 3 steps, S1 Red, S2 Green, S3 Blue)
4. Release Stack 1 and fade to UV.

As you can see Q3 has tracked Amber so my RGB colour chase is not pure RGB as it has Amber lit.

 

To replicate a more basic version, add 1 RGBWAuV fixture.

Create a chase using the Auto pallets to Stack 1

• [1][@][@]
• select red
•  [record] [Stack 1]
• select Green
• [record] [Stack 1] (select create chase)
•  select Blue
• [record] [Stack 1]

[Clear] [Clear]

Create a second Que

• [1][@][@]
• select amber (set all other colours to 0%)
•  [record] [Stack 2]

Now raise stack 2. your fixture is amber, now raise stack 1 for your RGB chase, you can see amber stays lit. 

In my show file I have added this chase in using macros (as explained in the instructions) but the more basic approach above demonstrates the bug well enough.

30 minutes ago, Jon Hole said:

Hi Derek,

Please remember you're talking about unfinished, unreleased beta software in our public forums. More than happy to continue this conversation in the beta forums, but not publicly.

Apologies Jon,  The original thread was regarding feedback and a possible 'quick fix' to a bug that exists in the auto generated colour pallets (this is also present on public releases).

We have been side tracked as I mentioned I had tested with both the new and old fixture formats, I was asked for more details regarding my problems with the new fixture library.

Personally i would like a solution to all the problems talked about (these are all in the current release, with the exception of multicell), rather than default response giving the impression of 'Not our problem' 

I can make the example on a public release version if needed for completeness of this thread.

RGBWAuv_Test.zos

[Davidmk]

I'm  right on the fence in this.

As a user I'd like to know what is planned and when for but I also know I'd get over excited about features that are important to me, impatient if they were a long way down the time line and frustrated if they were late or cancelled.

As an ex software developer I appreciate that it isn't that simple. Some features will be easier and better if other features are implemented first. Some might turn out to need a ground up re-structure to do properly without compromising future maintainability. Yet others may compromise performance. Features that look to be straightforward can end up being dismissed or delayed because of the above or other reasons.

We should all remember that we get software updates for free. Lots of developers expect you to pay for feature releases and eventually stop supporting obsolete versions. I suspect it would hurt Zero 88 sales if they adopted this model but we users have to remember that development is not free and so things may not always move on as fast as we'd like and may prefer a direction that maintains or improves Zero 88 competitiveness in relation to other manufacturers. 

Perhaps there could be a compromise... Maintaining a public Wish List (in the forum perhaps) shouldn't be too hard and it could provide some feedback on desirability from the users and feasibility from the developers. That way Zero 88 would get low cost market research and we would have some input and be able to manage our expectations.

[kgallen]

49 minutes ago, Davidmk said:

We should all remember that we get software updates for free.

We don't. This would never be a viable business model. We pay upfront in the cost of the desk, that is the business model.

It may be "free at point of use" like the NHS, but it certainly isn't "free".

[Davidmk]

We get the version current at the time included in the cost for sure, we are morally entitled to bug fixes for that version but new features? Who is paying for them?

[Edward Z88]

Hi Derek,

51 minutes ago, keredyelesob said:

As you can see Q3 has tracked Amber so my RGB colour chase is not pure RGB as it has Amber lit.

To remove Amber from cue 3, go into cue 3. You can then release the chase by holding CLEAR and tapping FADER FUNCT. Then select the fixture, dial out Amber, tap UPDATE, and tap the Master Playback's button. To remove Amber from the first cue of the chase, trigger the chase, and hold SHIFT and tap the chase's button until you get to cue 1. Then select the fixture, dial out amber, tap UPDATE, choose Track Forwards, to remove amber from the chase.

Hope this helps,

Edward

[keredyelesob]

2 hours ago, Davidmk said:

As a user I'd like to know what is planned and when for but I also know I'd get over excited about features that are important to me, impatient if they were a long way down the time line and frustrated if they were late or cancelled.

I appreciate and support that R&D would not want to disclose their priorities and development road map to the general public, but they should take user driven feedback as part of their decision making. this is what always defined Zero88 in the past, but I feel it has sadly been lost.

My original post was regarding a bug in the software and a possible quick fix (this bug has been around since fixtures started supporting more colours than RGB)  I was then told that there is no problem and it was the way I was using the desk. as a User of Zeros since ~2008 and FLX since ordering one back in 2015, and again in 2017 you can understand I was a little surprised that the response of 'not our problem' was used.

I understand R&D can take a lot more time than users expect (try developing software for the NHS, they want everything before they think of it). ~3-4 years is a little excessive. Particularly when this has been a known problem for 7+ years but users have just coped.

My original point still stands that the colour picker would be more usable if it where to set additional (unsupported) colours to 0% allowing the desk to make colours using RGBW without the interference of other colours.

If I select Red I want to see red, not Red + UV, amber, lime ect. If I want to add these colours in I can, and then make a custom pallet. Currently if I select red then the desk sets Green Blue and White to 0% why not the other colours?

I would expect setting additional unsupported colours to 0% and using the already supported RGBW would be a quick fix. I am not saying colour mix amber and UV into the colour picker just tag them and set to 0%, no loss of existing functionality but at least the user gets the colour they selected.

2 hours ago, Davidmk said:

We should all remember that we get software updates for free. Lots of developers expect you to pay for feature releases and eventually stop supporting obsolete versions.

Free updates are industry standard for hardware. Lighting and sound desk manufacturers all provide free software updates.  Even with computer hardware things like your graphics card gets free driver updates, Microsoft constantly send out free updates to their software, your phone OS also gets free upgrades.

In my experience it is only custom bespoke software that requires support and maintenance fees as there is no real client base to support the ongoing R&D costs.

1 hour ago, Davidmk said:

We get the version current at the time included in the cost for sure, we are morally entitled to bug fixes for that version but new features? Who is paying for them?

Not being an employee i can only assume the cost is offset through new sales of their hardware, Hence FLX S range getting all the glory at the expense of FLX.

In addition, we the users, help zero88 as a lot of new sales will come from word of mouth, current users running their shows around the world using Zero88 hardware. I know I have encouraged several venues to purchase FLX consoles based on my opinions and demonstrations.

1 hour ago, Edward Z88 said:

Hi Derek,

To remove Amber from cue 3, go into cue 3. You can then release the chase by holding CLEAR and tapping FADER FUNCT. Then select the fixture, dial out Amber, tap UPDATE, and tap the Master Playback's button. To remove Amber from the first cue of the chase, trigger the chase, and hold SHIFT and tap the chase's button until you get to cue 1. Then select the fixture, dial out amber, tap UPDATE, choose Track Forwards, to remove amber from the chase.

Hope this helps,

Edward

so your solution is for me to go through all of my cues and manually untag additional colours. or go through all of my chases and tag the additional colours. Not a problem until you upscale the production to 60+ fixtures and 80+ chases. All in all it would be easier to right off the auto colours as a lost course as its not fit for purpose. I will create my own at the start of a tour.

it is sad that my list of disadvantages with Zero88 it getting longer given how long I have been invested with you. 

[keredyelesob]

the colour picker does not 'keep parameters together',

Although. I know.... its my fault for using the colour picker. not the fact that the Red (automatically created pallet) should set the other colours to 0% to output RED.

 

[Davidmk]

Ultimately Zero 88 have to develop features that keep them competitive and I expect that is the main justification for the development budget. Other factors may include controlling support costs (by fixing bugs, improving usability and even, sometimes, adding new features).

I'm  sure it's true that having a lot of satisfied users helps new and repeat sales so things that make users happy are good as well. Keeping existing users well supported with good service and new features is part of that and, for the record, I am a very happy user.

However, other than boosting or maintaining sales of new desks, new features do not generate income directly so I'm sure there's some process of costing and justifying each new feature. Zero 88 do not expect you to buy a new desk every year or two to get new features which is what some manufacturers resort to and they keep supplying the new features as long as the hardware can support it - even when it is no longer manufactured.

Yes, there are features I'd love to have and I'd love to have them tomorrow but I bought my desk on the basis that I'd used Zero 88 before and I knew it would be easy to understand, well supported, easy to get fixed, well priced and would do what I wanted even if it might be a bit clunky in some less used features. Believe me, I've used more expensive desks that are clunky in all areas and that is not something I've ever found on Zero 88.